Link between The Clocks and Cat Among the Pigeons???

Recently, while re-reading The Clocks, I found a reference by Merlina Rival (aka Flossie Gapp) stating that her husband (Harry Castleton, who we know was once married to her) had been mixed up with a school-teacher, and that she was pregnant. I was wondering if this may bear a connection with (SPOILER) the pregnancy of Miss Rich… Here are some reasons for this theory.

  1. In The Clocks, Mrs Rival was married to Castleton, who was involved in scams similar to those involving Mrs Rival, as Inspector Hardcastle stated (he must have known about Castleton beforehand, for he says that the police already suspected him of being people such as Roger Byron, Lawrence Dalton and Raymond Blair even before Mrs Rival came forward).
  2. Castleton and Merlina were married in 1948 (“fifteen years ago”, according to the Inspector), and since the novel was published in 1963, we can assume that the timelines are the same - the story takes place in the present day (1963, that is).
  3. The only reference to the season in which Cat Among the Pigeons takes place is in the garden, when Briggs refers to flowers. He says he wants to plant asters, which bloom in early fall to late winter, and in front of Miss Bulstrode (somewhat of a botanical Puritan) suggests Pompom Dahlias, which bloom between February and May. The only grey area between the asters and the pompom dahlias is February, which can be classified as late winter. Poirot states that Miss Rich was away “three months ago” in the previous term, which would be about the end of the previous year. Knowing that Miss Rich is pregnant, the pregnancy must have taken place about eight or seven months prior to Miss Rich’s arrival in Ramat (as she is stated as still being “fat” when in Ramat). This places it approximately in April, or May of 1958 at the latest (the novel takes place in 1959).
  4. In The Clocks, Hardcastle states that soon after Mrs Rival threw him out, Castleton disappeared (fifteen or twenty years ago). Some thought he had died, but most thought he had gone abroad. We know that the dead man (Curry) was SPOILER not Castleton, so what if he had gone abroad to forget Mrs Rival and Miss Rich?
  5. In The Clocks, Hardcastle says that Castleton disappeared fifteen or twenty years ago. Mrs Rival turned him out in 1951, but he certainly had other concubines who he was “married to” and I doubt he would have disappeared in shame after one had disowned him He could not have disappeared twenty years ago, since he married Mrs Rival fifteen years ago, but perhaps he disappeared about five years ago, allowing for Castleton’s web of lies, and Mrs Rival’s possible embarrassment at having been “duped”. Which would place his disappearance in 1958, at exactly the time when Miss Rich would have been impregnated.

Perhaps it is important to mention that, although “Curry” is NOT Castleton, the police have information that states that Merlina Rival (Flossie Gapp) did marry Harry Castleton, who was a suspected bigamist, fifteen years ago.

I know there’s quite a bit of speculation, but I want to ask some fellow Christiophiles - do you think this is possible?

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Comments

  • Tommy_A_JonesTommy_A_Jones Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
    Was it someone in The Clocks who knew the Head Teacher of Meadowbanks.
  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    Hello Tommy (Anthony Cade) Jones!! I actually mentioned in my outline that it was a connection between Harry Castleton (Mrs Rival's husband) and Miss Rich (teacher at Meadowbank).
  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    edited September 2017
    I was wondering if anyone else saw this...
  • Meadowbank isn't mentioned in "The Clocks", as far as I know, but in "Halloween Party" the headmistress tells Poirot that she heard of him from Miss Bulstrode, the former head of Meadowbank (and she sighs about the changes in Meadowbank - a "nod" to the fact that in "Cat among the Pigeons" Miss Rich had told Miss Bulstrode that she would implement changes if she became headmistress.
  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    That is quite interesting, Tali - I also remember something of the sort, but I never caught on to the fact that Miss Rich had been subtly referenced as the current headmistress. Though Meadowbanks isn't mentioned in "The Clocks", Mrs Rival does mention that her former husband got a schoolteacher pregnant. Suddenly remembering Miss Rich as a pregnant schoolteacher, I did some research and found what could be a potential connection. I outlined it in the thread description... what do you think?
  • It could be. The question is, do we treat AC's books as describing one coherent world, or each book on it's own. This isn't the only "vague" link - someone pointed out that the crazed woman in the sanatorium in "Sleeping murder may be the same one mentioned in one of the Tommy and Tuppence books. I wonder if these links were really in the back of AC's mind when she wrote the books, or whether it's just coincidence, and it is our need to connect and create a coherent world out of her books. Just as a lot of us were excited to find "link" books - such as The moving finger linking Miss Marple and Mrs. Dane Calthorpe, The Pale horse Linking Mrs. Calthorpe and Ariadne Oliver, and several books linking Mrs. Oliver and Hercule Poirot - "proving" that HP and MM lived in the same fictional world.  
  • Tommy_A_JonesTommy_A_Jones Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
    I think Tali is right, we have a need to link all the books together to fit our tidy minds and our tidy way of thinking and in some cases it works like for instance I think it is Poirot who meets a Head Mistress who knows the Head of Meadowbanks and her Old School has a name that sounds similar to Meadowbanks but In some cases there is no way you can link other Books, how for instance can you link other books to And Then There were None, Passenger To Frankfurt, Ordeal By Innocense or Crooked House although it is quite conceivable that Bundle and Lady Derwent mix in the same circles.
  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    It could be. The question is, do we treat AC's books as describing one coherent world, or each book on it's own. This isn't the only "vague" link - someone pointed out that the crazed woman in the sanatorium in "Sleeping murder may be the same one mentioned in one of the Tommy and Tuppence books. I wonder if these links were really in the back of AC's mind when she wrote the books, or whether it's just coincidence, and it is our need to connect and create a coherent world out of her books. Just as a lot of us were excited to find "link" books - such as The moving finger linking Miss Marple and Mrs. Dane Calthorpe, The Pale horse Linking Mrs. Calthorpe and Ariadne Oliver, and several books linking Mrs. Oliver and Hercule Poirot - "proving" that HP and MM lived in the same fictional world.  
    That is certainly a question we need to address, Tali, but I am of the belief, prompted by the examples you have stated, that the books are all taking place coherently, or along the same time-frame. Mr Satterthwaite, outstanding as a quiet observer and social snob, appeared also in both Harley Quin stories and a Poirot (Murder in Three Acts). It is banking on quite a large assumption, but Christie has been known to drop little hints, as you also mentioned with Miss Rich, of two interconnected characters. I simply thought that this might be the case because I read of Mrs Rival's account of a pregnant schoolteacher, and lo and behold! A nice, convenient one appeared in the form of Miss Rich.
  • That is certainly a question we need to address, Tali, but I am of the belief, prompted by the examples you have stated, that the books are all taking place coherently, or along the same time-frame. Mr Satterthwaite, outstanding as a quiet observer and social snob, appeared also in both Harley Quin stories and a Poirot (Murder in Three Acts). It is banking on quite a large assumption, but Christie has been known to drop little hints, as you also mentioned with Miss Rich, of two interconnected characters. I simply thought that this might be the case because I read of Mrs Rival's account of a pregnant schoolteacher, and lo and behold! A nice, convenient one appeared in the form of Miss Rich.
    I'm re-reading "Clocks"  - I'll see if I can fit the books together on this point.

  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    If you want some reference, I outlined it in the thread description. Thanks for the help, Tali.
  • I just reread "The Clocks" and it doesn't seem to fit. Here is Merlina's description of her husband's entanglement with a schoolteacher (The Clocks): "...he came back and said he’d have to clear out quickly. He said that the game was up. There was some woman he’d got into trouble. A school teacher, he said, and there might be a bit of a stink about it."  And here is Miss Rich's comment on her affair (Cat among the Pigeons): "There was never any question of marriage... I knew that. He isn't to blame". The two simply don't fit. Why should Miss Rich make "a bit of a stink" when she knew (by her own words) that there was no question of marriage? And how would she know there was no question of marriage, if the man was indeed Castleton whose habit was to dupe his female victims with promises of marriage?  So I'd say there was no connection, and we have two separate stories of female unmarried teachers getting pregnant by men they could not marry.

  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    Tali, I think this is on the assumption that Miss Rich is the one making the "stink". The fact that Mrs Rival claims Castleton said there might be a bit of a stink could mean that if parents, students, Miss Bulstrode found out about Miss Rich's pregnancy, that would be a largely unpleasant "stink". Furthermore, the fact that Castleton often chose women who wanted to marry him could, alternately, be taken to mean that Miss Rich's practical attitude was refreshing to Castleton, who was used to clingy, desperate women, and was, to put it crudely, "easy game". I wouldn't rule it out completely, in such a case, Tali…
  • I don't see it that way. You have one common fact - a schoolteacher's pregnancy - and several discrepancies. A schoolteacher getting pregnant is not such an unusual event that it by itself would count as a coincidence. As to Miss Rich's family creating the "stink" - it doesn't fit the fact that she presented the whole thing to Miss Bulstrode as a private affair - she got pregnant, she went away, the baby was born dead, she came back. Her character is also that of a private person, who wouldn't share her personal problems with a "network" of family or friends.

    On the other hand, the idea of a schoolteacher with a problematic or unwanted romance is something that also appears in "Halloween party" (and to a lesser degree in "Elephants can remember") - making at least 4 appearances, including "Clocks" and "Cat", so this may have been an issue Agatha Christie had come across in real life and she was interested in it - Just as a domineering parent appears in several books and in many variations.  

  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    Tali, I don't think I ever mentioned that her family would create the "stink". By "parents", I meant the parents of the students enrolled at Meadowbank, not Miss Rich's parents, whom we know nothing of. And the fact that this is a recurring motif does not rule out the idea of a connection - as far as I know, a schoolteacher wasn't involved in Elephants Can Remember (only two governesses, I think) and the schoolteacher in "Hallowe'en Party" was murdered as a result of her unwanted romance, and not impregnated at all.
  • in ECR the governess who was in love with the male victim was originally a teacher - she left her school to help the troubled family. As for Miss Rich - she did everything to hide her condition. If even Miss Bulstrode had no inkling till months after the fact, how could the parents? and how could Castleton be afraid of the "stink" when he found out she was pregnant? No, It's a novel idea, but it just doesn't fit - you keep having to make special assumptions in order for it to work (e.g. that the parents of the students know or can find out, and that Castleton knows this; that Miss Rich would use that to pressure Castleton to the point that he has to disappear immediately, something that is completely not in her character). As Poirot would say, you have to look at the psychology, not just the facts. On the other hand, the connection between Miss Rich taking over Meadowbank and implementing her ideas, and the headmistress from "Halloween Party" regretting the changes in Meadowbank since Miss Bulstrode retired to seem to me to fit together.  
  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    @taliavishay-arbel, Can we agree to disagree :)
    I think that, like Hercule Poirot, I may want things to be orderly and connected, without too many loose ends wafting about the place, but you, like Miss Marple, may want the matter to be cleared up with minimal fuss.
    Who's to say who's right? (Though you certainly made several excellent points)
  • HerculeAndAchilleHerculeAndAchille Harrogate, England
    I am intrigued by your idea of recurring characters or motifs, though, so I was wondering if we could make a thread to discuss that? (or discuss it within this thread itself?) I also noticed the recurrence of dominant mothers - Mrs Burton Cox, Mrs Boynton, Mrs Bentley (James Bentley's mother in Mrs McGinty's Dead) and so on...
  • We've mentioned dominant parents in several threads. Why don't you start a thread about recurring motifs in AC's books in general? And maybe discuss, if the same motif appears in several books, what is the significance of the different ways it is treated.
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