What social issues are brought up in And then there were none?

SerourB

Hi

I have an interest in social issues at the time of Agatha Christie . I have read the book but I would just like to know what other people think about issues such as - women working, divorce, money , statues ...

please let me know your opinion

jennifer

Interesting...well the first thing that comes to mind is the title change.  I sometimes feel, although I've haven't read about AC in real life, but through her novels that she was prejudiced against African American/Black people.  I know the original title comes from a poem, but it still feels completely inappropriate to me to be used as a book title.  

SerourB

I understand your reasoning, but do you think her mind set might have sprung from the society? As in the way she was brought up , her neighbours, books and movies of that time?

I didn't know that abut the title, that is quiet interesting , you learn something new everyday, thank you

jennifer

Oh yes, absolutely sign of the times.  Maybe someone can help me out here, but there are other books too that she speaks of the "negroes" in a servant-type role.  She definitely lived in a "class" society where butlers and maids were separate from the wealthy.

Tommy_A_Jones

In The Discontented Soldier Negroes are mentioned, The Issue of Justice is mentioned and Retribution.

SerourB

Yeah she does seem to mention "negroes" in a number of her books , also in many scene s set in Egypt she does seem to make fun of the locals and call the children fly s . thank you very much for your help .

As for the issue of justice , do you find that that is mainly due to the actual character being a judge or just general?

MissQuin

Spoilers!!! I think there's quite a few. The above mentioned racial issues.

Society's attitude towards unmarried mother's at that time. They were frowned upon and sometimes even became social outcasts. Miss Emily Brent's maid got pregnant, then killed herself. But instead of any sympathy or Christian forgiveness, she is utterly unmoved by her death which she could have prevented.

The other issue is to with corporal punishment. Justice Wargrave sits in a court or law, he get's to decide if someone is found innocent and lives or found guilty- and dies. But the question is what right do people have have to decide the fate of others? What if a person was innocent and was hanged?

Anthony Marston lives fast and drives too fast and as a result, kills two innocent children. Yet he was able to remain in the community and continue his way of life, completely remorseless of what he's done. Why should this be so?

Then a character becomes so obsessed with righting these wrongs, they end up on a one person campaign of so called justice.   

I think Agatha Christie was  a devout Christian- so she would have believed that only God decides the fate of people. 

jennifer

Good stuff MissQuin!  I am now rereading the book with a new "eye" to look into these social issues.  I think Emily Brent is the most annoying character in the book!  The whole issue of the Death Penalty is pertinent here too - who is the Judge to decide who must die when some were accidents or perhaps not even murders?

MissQuin

SPOILERS!!! There is some dramatic irony over people's occupations in There There Were None.

The doctor was supposed to cure a person, instead he kills them. The servants who are supposed to "help" their mistress, end up murdering her. Soliders were expected to be selfless, sacrifice themselves for their country.  Yet Lomard committed an act of true selfishness to save himself only. A governess is supposed to look after her charge and yet Vera did the opposite. 

The Judge and the Police officer who are supposed to govern crime, but end up committing them.

Although not an occupation, Emily Blunt embodies the characteristics opposite of those good ones taught by her Religion. The General said he loved his wife but instead of suggesting a divorce and letting her be happy with another, he makes sure her lover dies. Marston is simply the embodiment of  a spolit brat, with no responsibilities and carelessly wrecking the lives of others

jennifer

SPOILER!!!!!!

I just finished book.  Interesting that in his letter-in-a-bottle, the Judge says that he is the only one on the island that was not a murderer, therefore he would be the last one to be a suspect.  He maintains the notion that Edward Seton was guilty and the police know it, so in his mind he is justified in sentencing death.  I wonder how long and how many notes it took for Agatha to concoct all these "dramatic ironies!"

SerourB

I am so happy to see all these replies . I cant explain how ecstatic I am that all of the above was mentioned

Miss Quin :

Do you think that maybe Emily Brent had emotional issues and that her reaction was due to that rather than religion or society? What I mean is, its been in the news lately that married women look down on women who are not married . Its not just due to society saying that married women were better - or anything of such- but its due to emotional reasons , such as feeling more safe or  a feeling of fulfilment in life. Also, Christianity does say that you should forgive but it also mentions that adultery is wrong. would you say that Emily Brent was put in a difficult situation  , choosing between religious reasons or between what society accepts?

As to justice wargrave, wouldn't you say that justice needs to be served on earth as well as later on? true it is unfair that some people are chosen rather than others, but everyone does get a choice. After all , if everyone was a judge we would all probably be killing each other. I do understand what you mean by what if someone was innocent but was hanged? True, this has happened many a time in history. But wouldn't you rather the death of a few people than everyone going free?

I believe that Anthony was the only innocent one there. He took life without thought. I think that Wargrave saw this too. Anthony was never taught to think of anything or anyone but himself . However, having said this , I do not feel much sympathy for him.

Moreover, I dooooo agree with you in regards to the irony. I think that is what attracts me more to this book. The fact that everyone opposes what they should be doing. Also it does reflect the life that we are living today , in many ways.

Jennifer:

I agree with you, Emily Brent is the most annoying character of alllll. She gets under my skin , and the fact that she is remorseless is even more annoying.

Also , there is a documentary on BBC that looks at her notes . It is still there as I was watching it two days ago. Her grandson along with the woman doing the documentary look at the notes that Agatha collected and how they all came about. If you are interested , check it out, its REALLLLY good.

Also thank you all for these wonderful insightful replies, am glad I can have these discussions with people- unfortunately , my generation is a fail at recognising great work.

MissQuin

SerourB said:

I am so happy to see all these replies . I cant explain how ecstatic I am that all of the above was mentioned

Miss Quin :Do you think that maybe Emily Brent had emotional issues and that her reaction was due to that rather than religion or society?

I think Miss Emily Blunt hid behind her Religion. She used it in a self righteous way, a means of judging people. I also think that it made her feel superior  to others. She  thought herself as holy and virtuous and saw other's as flawed. Also Vera noted that Miss Blunt's childhood seems to have made it's impact on repressing her.

The idea of justice in Then There Were None is a very complex one. Justice Wargrave murdered people for taking the lives of others. But isn't it possible for people to partly redeem themselves? Some of the characters might been so guilt ridden in later life. I think that General MacArthur and Mrs Rogers felt the most shame over their actions. They may have altered their lives to start helping others. But they never got the chance.

During the confession at the end, the character talks of his childhood. He clearly took great pleasure in torturing insects! Clearly a complete sadist. He chose his occupation so he coul use  perfectly legal means of inflicting physical and emotional torment on other people. It wasn't so much about justice, it was just an excuse to punish others. The same way that Miss Blunt used her Religion as an excuse for judging an alienating people.  

It's a fantastic book and strangely, re-reading it just as exciting

Was the documentary of BBc4 A History Of Murder with Lucy Worsely? I did watch all 3 parts.

Tommy_A_Jones

I liked that Documentary but the first one was quite boring and towards the end of the 3rd one was too.

SerourB

Miss Quin :

I definitely agree that Emily Brent hid behind her religion and thought herself righteous.

As for altering their behaviour , I believe that justice wargrave was a man of justice, in a court there are no second chances, so for him , it was unlikely that anyone would get a second chance. Therefore, technically speaking, he was following his job and what he has learnt all his life as a judge. However, I do agree that he was mentally hinged and used his statues to hurt and affect people.

Also , yes I believe it was Lucy Worsely. I quiet enjoyed the documentary as I visited Agatha Christies house during the summer holidays and when I say my parents had to drag me out , I mean DRAG me out - with the help of food

Tommy :

I don't quiet remember the first one, I literally get too into anything with the mention of Agatha Christie to the point that I never find anything about her boring ( I have been taken to the head of year three times while reading And Then There Were None because the teachers thought I was ignoring them when actually I was too into the book and didn't even hear them )

MissQuin

This has been a really interesting and in depth discussion, most enjoyable!

For those who missed the Agatha Christie piece, it's episode 3 of A History Of Murder  still on BBC4 I player

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ftzlq

 I found the Agatha Christie pieces fascinating.  But in all truthfulness I'm not really a Sayers fan,  Worsley said she think's she was a better writer than AC. This is purely her opinion, so wouldn't be deemed fact.

I didn't find the programme boring. But I think I would have preferred less pantomime scenes of her overacting. It came across as as silly. I recently saw a programme about the writer MR James with Mark Gatis. I can't help but wish that he had presented The History Of Murder. After all, he has written episodes of Poirot, including the splendidly spooky Halloween Party! He would have really have built up the suspense. 

SerourB

True , Worsley did annoy me at the mention of Sayer being better than AC. I think its mainly due Sayer going to Oxford Uni and Worsley having attended there.This makes it quiet a biased opinion, and in my eye quiet wrong.

I would have enjoyed it much more if M Gatis had been the presenter . Though it would have been even better if Suchet was involved as he was in a documentary before that.

MissQuin

I mean no disrespect to Sayers of course. It's just her books are so different to Christie's it seem's unfair to compare them. The only things in common is their both written by women and both about crime. It would be like comparing Jane Austen to Charlotte Bronte- whose beliefs and writing style are opposites. 

I think that in factual programme, personal opinions shouldn't come into it, simply becasue they aren't fact!  

But I LOVED that old recreated pharmacist shop  Lucy Worsley went to!! Does anyone know where it is? I desperately want to go there. 

Tommy_A_Jones

Personally I don't think it is unfair to Compare Christie With Sayers, both Wimsey and Poirot are Maetaurs in the sense neither are Police men even though Poirot once was, It is in my view fairer than Comparing the Poirot Books with the Marple Books or Visa Versa

SerourB

Of course.

I think there is no doubt that language wise, Sayer s writing is better , since she actually attended school from an early age. However, story wise, AC had a better imagination and her stories were more interesting. But for an expert such as Worsley I think the language and how coherent a piece of writing is , is more interesting than the actual story.

Also yes I do agree, personal opinions shouldn't account in a factual program . However, presenters are usually biased about something and it does show more times than not.

Am sorry , I have no idea where it is. I would love to visit it too.

SerourB

Also , I do agree that the comparison is unfair . Though I think even comparing poirot and marple would be wrong since both had different approaches and personalities

MissQuin

Tommy_A_Jones said:

Personally I don't think it is unfair to Compare Christie With Sayers, both Wimsey and Poirot are Maetaurs in the sense neither are Police men even though Poirot once was, It is in my view fairer than Comparing the Poirot Books with the Marple Books or Visa Versa

I think you mean Amateur- and Poirot is hardly an amateur. He's been in Police Force. He is greatly respected by many professionals and is fully qualified to be a private detective. 

SerourB- I agree and think Agatha Christie write beautifully, she achived so much with her imagination. 

jennifer

SerourB - Is there another AC book that brings up as many social issues?   This has been lots of fun - and rereading ATTWN.  Do we want to analyze another?

SerourB

Am glad you enjoyed this as much as I have

OMG your lucky , I wanted to reread it this week but since I have borrowed it to another one of my friends , I couldn't

Also , I suppose the mystery of the blue train has a few social issues, along with death on the nile and 4:50 from Paddington does look at a few social issues too.

Tommy_A_Jones

Taken At The Flood and Ordeal By Innocense  Highlight a lot of social Issues and should be used as Corse work in Schools

SerourB

I don't really like taken at the flood , it was quiet confusing for me and didn't find it thrilling .

I begged my teacher to let us do death on the nile for GCSE , she said yes and then the class said "no one wants to read a book by an unknown author " I GAVE UP trying to educate them.

jennifer

I liked the Mystery of the Blue Train.  It's been a while since I read it.  Maybe will start that tonight.  I just reread Death on the Nile not too long ago - another favorite.  

I have a book called "The New Bedside, Bathtub, and Armchair Companion to Agatha Christie edited by Dick Riley and Pam McAllister, and there is an interesting paragraph:

"Agatha Christie's eye for intrigue was continually  winking at her characters' preoccupation with class and money - not to mention at their prejudices regarding national origin.   And well she might know these preoccupations, being a well-bred, upper-class lady herself."

off to order Blue Train on my Nook!

SerourB

Enjoy it and let us know if you notice any issues in there.

Death on the nile is SOOOO good. its the first AC book I read and I just love it, the movie did do it justice.

and that  is a strong paragraph , the metaphor just sends shivers down my spine. also , it seems that back then, it was mainly the upperclass people who noticed such issues, everyone else was too busy to notice

Tommy_A_Jones

Seroub your Teacher should have told her Pupils you aren't there to choose the Lessons, you are there to Learn.

SerourB

Tommy_A_Jones said:

Seroub your Teacher should have told her Pupils you aren't there to choose the Lessons, you are there to Learn.

I wishhhhhhh, but it was a vote and they voted against it , they picked of mice and men by Steinbeck which isn't that bad but compared to AC its not great

Tommy_A_Jones

Steinbeck is or was American wasn't he?so they have heard of him but not the worlds Greatest Crime Writer who is only bettered by The Bible and Shakespeare, Your Teacher should be dismissed for putting it to a Vote.

SerourB

Tommy_A_Jones said:

Steinbeck is or was American wasn't he?so they have heard of him but not the worlds Greatest Crime Writer who is only bettered by The Bible and Shakespeare, Your Teacher should be dismissed for putting it to a Vote.

THANK YOUUUUUUU, but she s a really good teacher , our head oh English is a fail though , so when it was said to her she just said to vote. Its stupid because they can't even be compared but what can I do. I just left it or else it would have gotten sticky. but PREACHHHHH , it wasn't even that good a book , the movie was wayyyy better