a point about the murder of roger ackroyed

maryamalbulushi

i just finished this awesome masterpiece ranking it on my top AC books ,but i have a question or to be more honest something which disturbs me about the ending 

A big spoiler alert !!

there is a contrast between something I've read before and what Poirot did to be more clear i read somewhere something which mean " a true or a perfect (or whatever fits the same meaning ) detective will never let the murderer to commit suicide ) !! now as we all know Poirot actually suggested that to Dr. Sheppard  and that doesn't fit to me . do you think it was a good decision from Ac?? or was it fair to let a murderer to suicide ?? want to hear your opinion about the statement and Poirot's action , just to let you know i am with the statement what Poirot did although i love Poirot very much 

Tommy_A_Jones

I have a feeling she must have mapped out Hercule's journey before starting to write if not The Mysterious Affair AT Styles then definitely The \Murder Of Roger Ackroyed to give the Reader the hint that perhaps he might SOMETIMES let a murderer escape the Noose, this happened to my recolection 4 times, I think she looked at the "bigger Picture" and as the Victims are dead and in e of the Occasions not wept over Hercule would think this was the best way out, with this case SPOILER ALERT!!! Hercule was thinking about the Sister.

shana

@maryamalbulushi :in connection to your point made, do you think it odd that AC made the Murderer Hercule Poirot commit suicide after making sure that Hastings knew what really happened ?

@Tommy_A_Jones: in what 4 novels/stories does Hercule let the murderer escape the Noose as you call it? 

Tommy_A_Jones

The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, Appointment With Death, Murder On The Orient Express and Curtain Poirot's Last Case

Tommy_A_Jones

And Death On The Nile, I forgot about that one.

shana

@ Tommy_A_Jones: that"s my point in Curtain it happens twice! >- 

Did you look it up Tommy, or do you know all this from the back of you hand/head?

=D>

Griselda

Also, in Dumb Witness, the outcome for the murderer is very similar to that in The Murder of Roger Ackroyd. I have a suspicion that this kind of lassitude was more common in the novels written earlier. Other forum detectives may agree with me that in Three Act Tragedy, something similar happens:SPOILER ALERT: the murderer: Poirot tells Mr Satherwaite, "No, he will only choose his exit, the slow one before the eyes of the world, or the quick one off stage." SPOILER ALERT In ABC Murders, Poirot acts carefully to make sure there will be no quick exit, and in Peril at End House, SPOILER ALERT, he seems to know what the murderer will do to choose their own way out.IT is effective plotting, I believe, because it shows that Poirot has a heart, and will respond differently to some murderers than to others.

I can't help wondering if in the 1920s and 1930s, a kind of covering up happened in real life with the police. Look at The Crooked House.SPOILER ALERT. There is a comment to the effect that the people who had been under suspicion before the identity of the actual murderer is found, will have a trial and they will be let off because the police will arrange it so that no evidence is brought. I wonder what they thought about waiting about in prison in the meantime! Certainly times were different it seems, for the reading public of The Moving Finger (Published 1943) were willing to 'buy' the idea of Jerry being asked by the police if he would like to sit in on aspects of the enquiry, as his opinion might be useful!  (No suspicions that someone as upright as he seems might be the actual villain!) Rather similar for the narrator of The Crooked House. All very cosy, if you had the right credentials, and not dissimilar to Enid Blyton's Finderouters being encouraged to solve crimes by the Chief Inspector.

maryamalbulushi

@tommy_A_jones even if he was thinking about his sister tommy that is not an excuse in both ways she'll know the truth (if by James committing suicide she will not know that he was the murderer then how will it end ?? who will be the murderer of roger ackroyed for Caroline?so it's better to face it than suicide like cowards and leaving it all behind you he'll never rest in peace with that at least and also I think that would made Caroline more expert and she would be a good assistant next time

maryamalbulushi

@shana I never agreed on poirot's suicide it's just wrong he mustn't do that , there is no such a thing suicide is it's solution and it never will be , and I also keep telling my sister if he just didn't do that it is a one black point against him which will remain in my mind and for AC as a brilliant author she surly could've a better way to end his life but she didn't maybe because she just hated poirot when she wrote curtain

shana

@ maryamalbulushi: I think AC wanted Poirot to go out with a bang by committing murder himself and then sparing him the humilation of going through a trial like any other common murderer. Wasn"t there something about a great detective also wanting to try his hand once at the thing he has prevented or gotten at the bootom of succesfully, so many times?

I agree with you that suicide is wrong and leading someone towards suicide is even more wrong. But I suspect AC was kinda letting Poirot do the world and Dr. Sheppard a favour bysuggesting suicide to him and allowing him to commit suicide. You know all in the feel of "good riddance".

taliavishay-arbel

I don't think at the time it was unacceptable for the detective to allow the murderer to commit suicide. (In a story - real-life police procedure was different!) Dorothy Sayers does it twice (in Death at the Bellona Club and Murder Must Advertise). Ngaio Marsh lets the killer walk free in Black as He's Painted and When in Rome. It was probably accepted that fiction had it's own, unrealistic norms, such as that every case is solved, usually within a few days, and even the minor characters who got embroiled in the trouble find some kind of closure (though not always). 

maryamalbulushi

another point i would like to share .. have anyone noticed how beautifully Ac did draw Caroline's character and her personality?? i loved it so much she is so a typical woman with her curiosity and  gossip loving and being bossy ,predicting things and sticking on her theories she is similar to woman now a days ,even it's almost 89 years since this story was written !! how amazing ,does that mean that woman never has changed since then ??

as a girl that sounds pretty interesting thing to know ^-^

:-?

Tommy_A_Jones

I was remembering off The Top of My Head, I like to see Murderers arrested.

shana

Yes, @ Tommy_A_Jones I stand corrected: off The Top of Your Head.  Excuse me, English is my third language. AnI I like to see the guilty punished.

Anubis

HP does not die of suicide in Curtain; true, he does not prolong his life by taking amyl nitrate, but neither does he take steps to shorten it. He leaves himself in the hands of "le bon Dieu" and dies of natural causes. When any book is narrated in the first person, we tend to "become" the narrator. So, in MRA, when we find out that "we" are the murderer, and that "we" will be dying of suicide, AC has created an ending that is more bleakly powerful than if justice had taken its normal course. The ending may be disturbing, but you cannot deny its impact. However, for a completely different, and less disturbing solution, try "Who Killed Roger Ackroyd" by Pierre Bayard, c2000, The New Press. [The notion that the ideal detective will not allow the culprit to "do himself in" is new and interesting to me. In S.S. Van Dine's mysteries (now forgotten, but in the 1930s extremely popular) detective Philo Vance often allows the murderer "the easy way out" or even kills him himself.] Lastly, if you will excuse a serious note in a light-hearted discussion, dying of suicide is no more a choice than dying of cancer is a choice.