Angelina Jolie Circles ‘Murder on the Orient Express’ Remake

GKCfan

Who would she play?  http://variety.com/2016/film/news/angelina-jolie-murder-on-the-orient-express-1201790882/

Griselda

Miss Debenham is the significant part which she would want, presumably, although she looks the part to play the Countess, the SPOILER, sister of the child's mother.

GKCfan

One report says she'd play Mrs. Hubbard, but the Countess seems to me to be the best role for her.

Griselda

Indeed. Of all the roles, on the surface, the Countess role seems the obvious one. That said, the Countess role is  muted, owing to the Countess's apparent lack of confidence/ diffidence because of her being upset. She seems to be an object of the meditations of others, rather than the subject of any of the action. I don't see Angelina Jolie being able to dim her shining light and immense vitality to inhabit such a role. However, the actress certainly looks like a countess - or a queen, also. There is an enormous sincerity of purpose about Angelina. Her whole life is what she believes in, a kind of purity and singularity of being about her. On the other hand, Mrs Hubbard, as a person, as an actor, as a schemer pretending to be what she is not, is all artifice, projection to achieve a desired effect, and smoke screen. You sense the history, the compensation for not being the 'beautiful lead star' by becoming the  character actress. ( They seem to say that you are either a star or a character actress). I don't see Ms Jolie being able to convey this undercurrent if she is given the Mrs Hubbard role. But if, as I mentioned before, if Kenneth Branagh can cast, for the stage, the mature Derek Jacobi as Romeo's friend Mercutio, anything is possible. 

Tommy_A_Jones

There Is or was an Actress who played a Member of The IRS in some Episodes of Diagnosis \murder, she could play Mrs Hubbard, I have no idea what her name is or if she is still alive, does anyone know who I mean? And there is of course Melicent Martin

Griselda

How old is Mrs Hubbard supposed to be? Meryl Streep might be good, or maybe an actress who doesn't usually do character parts could try it. Maybe, Goldie Hawn could try it - stepping out of type.

Best of all, though,  I suppose Emma Thompson would give it a good bash, as they say, if Kenneth Branagh wanted to do something interesting and cast his ex-wife. Actually, I'd urge fellow fans to google images for her, and see how she looks as if  she'd fit the part well: she'd got that comic actress dimension. It is the sort of role which her mother, Phyllida Law, would have played, and I think Ms Thompson would fancy the idea of being like her mother since she often acts in pieces with her. Also, Emma Thompson likes to be thought of as a serious actress, which she is, and the great actress Ms Arden (?) would be a kind of role model I think  which she would want to channel.  Emma Thompson definitely has that flexibility, and also, as a person, like Ms Arden, passionate about  causes and justice. Emma Thompson is immensely courageous. She would be brilliant!!

I think to stack the production with mega-names and huge, epic characters who've made a significant contribution, politically, to the world would be a great way to make this production different to what has been managed before. You'd be presenting the killing as a cause: the people fighting back when society's system of law has let them down. You'd be edging forward the political interpretation of the murder - the cause of natural justice. The diverse characters who take place stand for everyman - the people taking law into their own hands. It would have a Lord of the Flies dimension. What happens when the rule of law fails, and what is meant by civilization.

Tommy_A_Jones

Meryl Streep is a great Idea and if you put her into the Hat you must also put Glen Close into it as well as Emma Thompson AND Philida Law(I would choose Imelda Staunton). and what about Anne Hathaway as the Countess?

Griselda

Perfect! I agree with all your choices.

Madame_Doyle

I can't see Angelina Jolie taking a more minor role such as the sister (Countess) when there are better roles available in this story.  Linda Arden seems the most likely, although if you consider what was done with the Suchet version in giving Mary Debenham a greater part in the action, it's possible that even the Countess' role might be rewritten.  Since she's a reserved and skittish character in the book, it wouldn't make sense to write her as the main force behind this revenge, although the scriptwriters might do whatever they feel like doing.  I do think it's better to get American actors to play American roles, such as Linda Arden, because the English actors usually sound like they are from Chicago and generally don't do American accents very well.

Griselda

Am I right in saying that years ago Kenneth Branagh used to make films and put a lot of his friends and cronies in them.....or is that my imagination playing tricks on me?

Madame_Doyle

@Griselda, it does seem like it worked out that way, but when he was doing that, all of a sudden there was a remake being done of all the literary "classics" and so it would have been the same pool of actors at the time, at least the ones who would be most suitable for those types of roles.

Griselda

Yes, I see. It is something like the fact that a certain coterie of actors perform Shakespeare, and come up against each other again and again. I would be interested to see whether Branagh tries to cast very well-known names - and a fashionable crowd. To do so is, understandably, one way to create excitement and a sense of newness about a story which has been adapted extremely successfully once before.

Tommy_A_Jones

I wouldn't call The Countess a Minor Role, I would say the only Minor Roles in MOTOE were The Butler, The Secretary, The French Porter, and the ones played by Denis Quilley and Colin Blakeley in The Finney Film but a role is in someways as big or small as the person playing it makes it. I read or heard the parts of J. R and Sue Ellen were supposed to be minor to Bobby and Pam in Dallas but Larry Hagman and Linda whatever her name was made the parts bigger.

Agathasmykid

Does anyone think there is a chance of giving Suchet a cameo in this?  

Tommy_A_Jones

No

Griselda

It would be better, I think, to have David Suchet play Poirot, and Kenneth Branagh playing a cameo role.

David Suchet must realise that he is an absolute star of twentieth century television, and he will wish, I believe, to retain a purity about his legacy. Who else is such a star for playing a character last century? The Man from Uncle, perhaps; Rumpole of the Bailey, John Thaw probably pips David Suchet to the post for Morse. The Dr Whos change too much to have had staying power. Suchet i a legend!

Madame_Doyle

I hope they find someone else to play Poirot besides Suchet.  He's not the definitive Poirot, and the sooner people realize this and move on, the better.  It reminds me of fans who consider Jeremy Brett to be the perfect Sherlock Holmes; he was very good, and I enjoy those episodes, but there is more to a production than just the actors.  The scriptwriters butchered many of the Suchet Poirot stories, and that necessarily affected his portrayal.  It's mostly all down to how the characters are changed by the screenplay writers.  And besides, Suchet has already been in a version of Orient Express.  Let someone else entertain us.

@Griselda, I agree that Suchet is a great actor and I have enjoyed him in other works such as The Way We Live Now, for example.  But just because he has managed to film a version of all the Poirot stories, it doesn't mean he has interpreted the character better than anyone else could or has already.  I believe he could have helped influence the scripts to be better but many of them were so bad it just opens up the chance for somebody else to step up and become Poirot.

ChristieFanForLife

I think David Suchet is the best Poirot that we have seen and played the role more faithfully than a lot of actors in the past. It's unfortunate that some of the episodes were butchered and some unnecessary changes were made, especially in the later Poirot films and in the later ones there were more misses than hits in my opinion. I think David Suchet was involved a lot more in the later episodes and it's a pity that he didn't as you said influence the scripts to be better. Murder On The Orient Express had such potential to be so good but they messed it up big time! I think if the book was translated to film in the 90's when the Poirot films were much better and a lot more faithful, we could have had a masterpiece like with The ABC Murders and The Mysterious Affair At Styles and Peril At End House. 

Griselda

It might be interesting to have a Belgian or Frenchman play Poirot; at least we would be spared that earnest concentration on achieving gallic mannerism which has evoked a vague sense of the ridiculous in previous performances. 

Griselda

I think the Wagon Lit Company Director is going to be a very important role, because Kenneth Branagh, playing Poirot in this case, likes to, as an actor, build up his part, and expose his thought processes. He will be doing his thinking aloud to his chum, and it's going to have to be acted well on both sides. Maybe he will cast a mature legend, as he did  when he castDerek Jacobi as Mercutio in the stage adaption of Romeo and Juliet.

 

Tommy_A_Jones

It would be better if Suchet played Poirot and Branagh played either the part played by Martin Balsam in the Film or the one played by Michael York or maybe even The Victim.

Griselda

Which parts were those,Tommy? Were either of them the Compagnie WagonLits Director, M. Bouc?

 I think the sub-message of the novel is an upstairs/downstairs affair, the classes coming together in revolt at the inhuman murder SPOILER and tormenting of a child. In that sense, as other posters have said, any  of the 'killer' parts could, theoretically, be worked up and expanded to suit the wishes, ego, talents of a great actor who want a part in this new production. The more distantly-connected  retributors in terms of their relationship to the child, are, arguably, the more noble and, therefore, more interesting, by merit of their not having to have got involved, but having risked everything to do what they have believed in. 

 On another level, the novel is a pure examination of natural law, and the Russian Princess Dragomiroff expresses this tendency in her anecdote about an inhuman killer being battered to death in her young day. And then, interesting how Poirot expresses that Ratchett has the demeanour of a wild animal: are there any other AC  novels which stress this side of humanity, GKCFan? 

Hi Tuppence, some ideas for articles for the website are as follows:

This idea of natural justice, and when it is explored in the novels and short stories.

The treatment of different classes. Eg, treated as equally admirable in MOTOE.

Reference books on the novels. I just discovered that there are Sparks Notes on the novels. Why not get someone to review them, and to say if they are any good.

You ought to be reviewing critical treatment of AC. In the way people do about Jane Austen. Is her work being taken more seriously today? It sounds like it might be if Sparks Notes are applying their format to her work, since they usually write study notes for GCSE texts.

There is no reason why someone could not have written an article about Kenneth Branagh. It would be relevant and informative, and kick start some avenues of thought for forum members to ruminate on and comment on.

I would put this on the agenda of that meeting you are all going to have, and work out which journalists are going to write some articles.

It might also be interesting to read about you moderators and the AC team, and how you decide what happens next.

taliavishay-arbel

About natural justice: in "Appointment with death", I think, one of the characters (either Nadine or Dr. Sarah King) begs Poirot to leave the mystery alone, because natural justice has been served, and reminds him of a case (clearly "Orient Express") where he backed off and did not insist on delivering the murderer to Justice. Interestingly, other writers also have books where "natural justice" is condoned, though in most of their books conventional justice (i.e. capture by the police and legal trial, or death by accident or suicide) ends the story. A few examples of "Natural Justice": "When in Rome" by Ngaio marsh, "A morbid taste for bones"  by Ellis Peters, "Bad Blood" by Dana Stabenow. 

GKCfan

@Griselda, probably the most prominent example of vigilantism and animalism of perpetrators is And Then There Were None, with "the zoo"– Lombard is compared to a panther, Vera to a frightened bird, Wargrave to a turtle, Blore to another brute beast, and Armstrong as a bundle of nerves.  Also, in "The Erymanthean Boar," the killer Marrascaud is compared to the wild boar.  Similar (though usually innocent) characters are compared to animals in Labours of Hercules.  A nice, heroic character is compared to a dog (as a complement) in The Seven Dials Mystery, and townspeople who believe that an innocent person is guilty of murder are compared to vultures or similar predatory or scavenging animals in multiple tales.

Griselda

Cheers! that was very comprehensive. Do you think that AC would have agreed with Sir William Golding's hypothesis that human beings revert to their savage, animal ways when confronted - or that we are all like that underneath the facade? In A Murder is Announced, Letitia SPOILER Blacklock is described as being just like a wild animal at the final denouement. Somebody needs to write an exploratory article on Christie's assumptions and beliefs about human nature.

GKCfan

Thank you!  Thinking of ATTWN, I don't know if the "reversion to animalism" was meant to refer to all people, but perhaps just to those with guilty consciences.  Incidentally, Christie's contemporary and fellow Detection Club member Anthony Berkeley wrote a novel Panic Party that covers a theme like you mentioned regarding reversion– when trapped on an island, many people become like wild animals, though a few retain their civilized nature.  That's a good idea for an article.  Miss Marple talks about human nature a lot.

Griselda

So Tali, natural justice is something of a theme with AC? At the end of her career, I certainly think that AC became more preoccupied with being the Nemesis, most notably so in At Bertram's Hotel, in which she was not at all pleased about the feckless mother SPOILER taking the rap for her emotionally abandoned and neglected daughter. Then again, I suppose she has to be Nemesis-like, since that is the whole point of the detective novel, the reader gaining satisfaction in false assumptions being laid by the heels, and the correct solution arrived at.

taliavishay-arbel

Griselda , yes, I think AC did think a lot about "natural" vs. "lawful" justice, and in her later years she leans more towards "lawful" justice - so MM becomes "Nemesis", both in the book of that name and in Bertram's Hotel, and HP refuses to condone "reasonable" homicide.
GKCfan - About the "reversion to animalism" - perhaps the classic book about it is George MacDonald's "The Princess and Curdie". There, Curdie is granted the ability to tell, by holding a person or animal's hand, who he really is inside - the premise is that people who behave badly become, in the inside, the animals their behavior resembles (e.g. a greedy person becomes a pig). An interesting idea in that book is that creatures are changing and moving - either for the better, or for the worse. Therefore, a human who is deteriorating will present an animal's hand, and vice versa. AC presents a similar idea in "Death comes as the end" - when the heroine, coming back home, is glad to feel that everything is the same, but in the end, the hero/detective shows her that if people don't change for the better, they deteriorate and the evil in them comes out.
Related to this "reversion" - it is interesting that in several books, the murderer, after having killed an unlikeable person deliberately, goes on to kill someone he/she likes because that person is dangerous to him, and then seemingly genuinely mourns that person. It is as if the murderer reverts to acting like a cornered animal, lashing out even at his/her friends, and once the danger is over, goes back to being a human being and mourning the murder victim. (See "Murder in Mesopotamia" and "A Murder is Announced").

Tommy_A_Jones

Martin Balsam played The Train Company Director and Michael York played The Man who stabbed The Victim with his wife, I think they were the Princess and Price.

Griselda

I'm expecting something at least sober and thoughtful from Kenneth Branagh. I can't imagine he'll make a complete mess up of it; although, there is a danger that any director might be a bit obscure, or try something clever which doesn't come off.

Griselda

It's going to be serious art if Branagh directs, as he will.